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Raising Resilient Kids with Michael Anderson

• Angelo Santiago • Episode 45

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Join Angelo Santiago in this conversation with Michael Anderson, a family therapist, coach, and author of the children's book series 'Jungle Tales.' They discuss the importance of parents doing their inner healing to show up more powerfully for their children, the principles of psychological flexibility, and the journey of overcoming personal fears and failures. Michael shares his experiences as a father of three and emphasizes the significance of slowing down, staying present, and prioritizing connection with oneself and others for holistic family well-being.

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Connect with Angelo: angelo@wearethemen.com 

Connect with Michael on Linked in: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-anderson-44ba36ba/ 

Purchase Michael's Book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0D2BGH6YQ 

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00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction

00:39 The Importance of Inner Healing for Parents

02:10 Michael's Personal Journey and Family Life

03:21 Balancing Career and Family

06:15 The Inspiration Behind Jungle Tales

12:42 Overcoming the Fear of Failure

18:12 Psychological Flexibility and Facing Fears

21:17 Embracing Psychological Flexibility

22:11 The Power of Surrender and Acceptance

22:47 Facing Fears and Overcoming Failure

24:28 The Hero's Journey: Reframing Our Stories

25:26 Balancing Fatherhood and Self-Care

26:59 Addressing Shame and Self-Worth

29:01 The Importance of Modeling Self-Care

32:55 Men's Emotional Connection and Community

37:41 The Role of Vulnerability in Healing

40:41 Final Thoughts and Future Connections

#menswork #fatherhood #men #psychology #parenting

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Fathering Resilient Kids with Michael Anderson - Podcast
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Angelo Santiago: Hey guys, Angelo here. Welcome back to we are the men, the podcast that is helping you define what it means to be a man and refine yourself as a husband, a father, and a leader. Today, I got a great episode for all of you, and particularly for the fathers listening, because I am talking with Michael Anderson. He is a licensed marriage and family therapist and an author, and we talk about three really important things. Number one, the importance of parents and fathers to do their own inner work so that they can raise resilient children.

Number two, the idea of facing our fears and he offers some suggestion on whether it's a career change or a big move in your life, how to actually confront those things that are holding you back, preventing you from making the move forward. And lastly, we discussed the importance of men helping each other in community, how men's groups can really help support all of us in our lives and how men can help each other as fathers.

Whether you're a father now, or you have the intention of becoming one, this is an episode you don't want to miss. I hope you enjoy it, and if at any time you feel called to, please leave a rating for the show to help me reach as many men as I can with this message.




Introduction and Guest Introduction
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Angelo Santiago: Welcome back to we are the men. I'm Angelo Santiago. And today I'm going to be talking with Michael Anderson. Michael is a family therapist, a coach, and a speaker on a mission to empower parents to do their own inner healing so they can show up more powerfully. The. For their children. He also earlier this year published his first book, a children's book series called jungle tales, which has meant to help parents and kids have impactful conversations about mental health principles, such as resilience, emotional regulation, courage, honesty, and so much more.

And as a father and a parent, I'm excited to learn a little bit more about this work that you're doing, Michael. For, for fathers and, and parents in general to just connect with their kids at a real level, which also includes doing their own inner work as you describe it. So let's get going. Thank you for being here, Michael.

It's been a journey for us to get this opportunity to talk together. And I'm excited to see where it goes. 

Michael Anderson: Yeah. Me too, Angelo. Thanks for having me. Yeah. For anyone listening, it took us about two months to finally get every schedules figured out and everything. So appreciate you hanging with me, man.

Angelo Santiago: Yeah. And I think that goes to a couple of things. One, like resiliency, like our determination to want have this conversation right with each other, but also because we both know the importance of, of this conversation to share out in the world and also the, the, the patience to move through things when they're not going the way you expect them to, I'll speak for myself.

I know. I'm for a long time and it still creeps into my life of, of being a over manager, a control. I wouldn't go as far as saying a control freak, but I like control. I like to know things are going to work when they're supposed to work. I'm things are going to start when they're supposed to start all this stuff.

And I've had to lean back and almost just release that control a little bit and, and talk about learning how to release control, become a parent. And that's almost like step number one. First thing you had to learn, at least I had to learn. So Yeah. I, you know, I think this goes straight into the conversation that I want to have with you, but before we get too far ahead, just, just to drop a quick check in for you.


Michael's Personal Journey and Family Life
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Angelo Santiago: How are things going in your life? What's alive for you right now? What are you being called to do in the world? Like what's alive in Michael's world right now?

Michael Anderson: Yeah, man. So much. So we what's going on now? I, we had our third child. She's, she's like a year and a half now. But she's our, she's our first, she's our first girl. I had two boys. And so I've been a girl dad the last year and a half. And that's just been amazing. And life has been so busy that lately what I've been called to do is just slow down a lot.

I know you and I were kind of talking about that a little bit before the recording, but I just realized it's our last kid. We're not going to have any more kids. And I realized she's a year and a half. And I'm, she's already getting so big. We just, my wife and I have been talking about not letting life pass us by anymore.

So really been trying to slow down and focus on the most important stuff in our life. One of those things being my second children's book is getting published here in the next couple of months. So that's really exciting and just trying to really put, pour more energy into that. Cause that's what matters.

As far as my career goes, that's what matters to me the most right now. So that's what I'm doing.


Balancing Career and Family
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Angelo Santiago: Yeah, that's been the message that I've received this summer as well. You know, I only have one child, but he's grown up so fast. Today he, I just dropped him off this morning for his first day of preschool for this year. And all parents who we know are seeing him and he's like, Oh my God, he's good.

So big. And, and it's just, the question comes back for myself and for my wife, who's also an entrepreneur. It's like, where's, where's the. the limit of how much work we're doing of how much career we're focusing on how much we've been kind of dragged into this fast paced world that we live in versus focusing like you said on what is most important.

So for you, I'm curious what has been some of the things you've looked around in your life and been like, is this necessary? What are, what are the ways in which you are slowing down so that you can focus on your three kids and your marriage?

Michael Anderson: So I am a very hardworking person, but I lack one, one of my weaknesses is focused. And so I will, I've, my wife will. Tease me a lot that if if I get an idea i'm get fascinated with it and I just want to run with it and i'll often pull myself in too many directions, right? And you know if you're chasing too many rabbits, you don't get any of them, right?

And so, you know, I was working on my therapy practice publishing books trying to speak a whole lot Starting a coaching business like all these things and I just realized one day after talking to my wife and my kids and just realizing that like man really none of this matters If i'm not in my family's world like what is the point of any of this if i'm not in my family's world and So that's what i've been doing.

So I I really slowed down my like coaching business stuff. I'm not really focusing on that as much anymore. I'm really just trying to focus on obviously on my therapy practice, on those books. And then other than that, just really trying to be more present with my family and realizing that my kids really don't care about anything else other than their dad.

They know their dad loves them. They know their dad accepts them and that their dad is there and they're part of their life. So that's what I've been working on.

Angelo Santiago: I feel like I'm talking to myself right now. Like, like all, everything you're saying. Yeah, it is, it is such a gift to, to be a parent and it comes. With all its own challenges, which are new, you know, and brings up so much of our own experience with our parents that we then bring in to becoming parents because yeah, there's books written all over the place about how to be a good father, how to be a good parent.

But sometimes we fall back to what we've experienced, versus what it is that we're. Trying out. That's new. That's uncomfortable. That's challenging. 


The Inspiration Behind Jungle Tales
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Angelo Santiago: And, and one of these things I'd love to talk about your, your book series, both the, the first one that was published and also this next one that's coming up, it is having these conversations that are more challenging because it also evokes a lot of like self reflection, like you're, you're saying doing their own inner healing, doing our own inner For me, yeah. I can't teach my kid about emotional regulation or honesty if I struggle to stay grounded and centered and actually experience my emotions and understand them and be able to talk about them or if I am, if I struggle with honesty. And so for you, talk a little bit about in creating these books.

Clearly it's. For both the kids and also the parents, what is it that you have seen maybe in your therapy practice that encourage you to write this and what's the message that you want everybody to know about it?

Michael Anderson: Yeah. I'm actually really relieved you said that because that was one of the focuses of writing a children's book is, oh yes, I want to write it for kids, but I also do want to write it for parents. I want to write, I want to put things in there to get into the parents worlds. Through the use of these books, right?

These parents read these books to their kids. They think they're doing it for their kids, but then they're learning principles. They're saying that they want to apply. So hopefully that's happening, right? And the reason why to your question, you know, I was earlier on in my therapy practice, I was working a lot with teenagers, actually.

And what would happen a lot is parents would come drop the kids off, right? And essentially say, Let me know when my kid is fixed, right?

Angelo Santiago: Yeah,

Michael Anderson: Fix this kid for me. And, and he's just, he's causing all these problems. She's causing all these problems. We don't know what to do. And as I get to know these kids early on, I had that mindset, like, all right, let's do it.

I'm going to like change these kids lives, right? I'm going to be like Robin Williams on Goodwill hunting and just change Matt Damon's life here, you know, and, and all these things. But then I, as I was getting to know these kids. I would start talking to them about like their home life and what their relationship was like with their parents.

And then I'd have their parents come in and we'd do family therapy and I would see these dynamics between how parents and children are interacting and the amount of disconnection between those two. And then pairing that with, I started learning more more about trauma healing and how trauma affects. Us as parents, how, how, when, if there's trauma that we haven't worked through or begun healing, parenting triggers all of that, man.

Parenting is the hardest job in the world because it shines a light on all of your insecurities, all of the stuff that you haven't worked through. And so I started seeing how kids would do something in therapy that would trigger or activate something in their parents, trauma that had actually nothing to do with their kid, but then the parent would respond with coldness, shaming, , disconnection, pulling away.

And I started real, I started realizing, okay, I'm spending an hour with these teens every day, but then I send them back into their life. With their relationships, and I'm not I'm not doing anything like I'm not making a difference What we need to do is help parents do their own stuff And so that's one of the reasons why I want to make a children's book is man if we could if I could help Parents and kids have these types of conversations at a really early age Then hopefully I could make a difference.

Angelo Santiago: . And just to shout out the book here. It's the first book of the first series called Jungle Tales. No more mistakes. And it's about this ability of, of learning how to, how to handle mistakes, how to handle failures.

Correct.

Michael Anderson: Yeah. Yeah So jungle tales follows the story of the two main characters are a rhino named Rocky and then a monkey You And they're best friends. And this one, yeah, Rocky's learning. He loves basketball. Or cocoa ball, in the book. Because he puts basketball with a coconut. It's not very Deep stuff there, but you know, they he's playing cocoa ball and he keeps missing.

And at first he operates under this belief that mistakes are bad. And so he wants to avoid anything that could cause a mistake. And it's just him journey learning that actually mistakes are not only okay, but they're necessary in order to improve. So trying to instill those growth mindset type principles for both parents and kids.

Angelo Santiago: Yeah, and I, you know, I see that a lot in working with men is this idea that we got to get it right all the time that we have to be perfect, whatever perfect means, which is, you know, impossible. Like we are not perfect beings. We are all , perfectly imperfect. I guess could say it. And, and I struggled a lot with that too, because I, you know, I'll just a little bit on, on, Like my experience growing up, like there was this desire to always do everything to the best possible ability, like to straight A's, to, the good schools, to, to, to get the, the, the ribbon in the science fair, whatever it is that, you know, if you're an athlete to, to place first.

Not that that was necessarily like, I didn't have a family that, you know, it was kind of like these, Oh, you got to get a football scholarship and you got to make it to the NFL that didn't grow up in that setting, right. Of extremely kind of domineering parents, but there was still the desire to, to get it right for my parents.

And it's, I want to make sure that I'm not. Putting that on my son, because I see him, you know, if I, I love giving him something new to play with and he loves building stuff like building blocks. Right. And, and he wants to get it right. Like he sees a picture of what it's supposed to look like. And he's like, wants to build it the exact same way.

Or when something crashes, he just loses it. And, and like trying to, to get him to understand that, Hey, life, life throws challenges at us. Sometimes things happen, not the way that we expected them. Sometimes we fail. I was blessed that when I went to college, I went for mechanical engineering.

And one of the principles that I learned in my studies was this idea of fail early and fail often this of like, you just got to keep going. You got to try something, you got to fail, you got to learn, and you try it again. And then you fail, then you learn you. And that's the process of iteration.


Overcoming the Fear of Failure
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Angelo Santiago: for you, why, in the series of the book, why was this, like, the first story that you wanted to tell? What about making mistakes have you seen that, like, really, without learning this principle of But it's not going to always work out. The first time you try something was so important that you're like, you know what?

This is the first story I'm telling.

Michael Anderson: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Great question. And let me just say, I had a roommate in college who was mechanical engineering, and I have only sympathy for people who are mechanical engineering majors. He would tell me about his homework and show me stuff, and I'm like, I don't even know what you're talking about.

Mechanical engineering is so intense. So all the respect for you for doing that,

Angelo Santiago: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I no longer do it. So here I am now with my podcast, but I learned a lot doing, I had a good time. I like the, the, the problem solving aspect, but once it came to like a career, I was like, eh, maybe not so

Michael Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, you know, I think to your question, there are a couple of layers there. One, I think I just saw that a lot. That topic really resonating with people, right. I'm really active on LinkedIn and active on that social media platform and, and. That, that idea of learning how to liberate yourself from this fear of failure and just letting that go and, and was just, I saw it really resonate with people and being like, well, if it's resonating with people, then these are obviously things people want to teach their kids.

More personally, though, this has been such an important lesson for me in the last five years or so as someone who was very afraid of making mistakes. And trying new things because of this fear, this untrue belief that I held that my worth was dependent on these outer results or my ability to perform as well as other people or outperformed people.

I spent much of my life. Avoiding new things, things that I knew would be really fun that I'd love to do, but avoiding it because of that untrue belief. And so, you know, I was in a career before I became a therapist as I was in a career that I didn't love and I knew I wanted to get out of it. And I had this idea to go back to school, get my master's, become a therapist.

But my mind would always say, you can't go back to school. You've never been a school guy. You've never been good at school. You can't do it. You like, you barely pass. Like you, there's no way you could do this. Like grad school is going to kick your butt. And I was just so afraid of failure. And finally, and that moment I had this realization of my mind is saying all those things.

My mind is saying, I can't do it. And that is exactly why I need to do this. Like I'm either going to run from these thoughts for the rest of my life or I'm going to face these head on. And so I decided to go back to school and to be a therapist and to do all these things. And that was like a really liberating moment for me.

And I shouldn't say moment because it made it seem like all of a sudden all my fears went away in a moment. Like that was something I kept working through. But just learning how to move with those thoughts instead of letting those thoughts push me around. move with those fears, move forward, carrying those fears with you.

Right. And, and so I think that's probably that principle of it's okay to make mistakes and it's necessary is a deeply personal principle in my life.

Angelo Santiago: And you're definitely not alone with that. I just wanted to touch on one thing that you're talking about earlier in your answer, talking about your self worth and this idea that my self worth is based on my ability to achieve or succeed or be, be successful at all these things. And, and you're certainly not alone in that.

That's such a common experience. It's like performance based self worth. Like I am valuable. Because of what I do or how I succeed versus the idea that like, no, no, no, I value just because I exist, you know, like have that level of self esteem, which is such a challenging things, whether it's our expectations of what people are going to say about us or like the nice house that we have, or like good job that we have, right?

Like, that's what we put our value on when the reality is like, can we just like, yeah, Love ourselves to the point of valuing ourselves that much and knowing that it doesn't matter if we fail or if we succeed, that is such a big thing to work on. And I want to talk about just a little bit deeper that you talked about facing the fears that you had head on, you know, and also idea that you said, moving with the thoughts, like it's not about just like shutting them down and suddenly like at a snap of a finger, you're this new man and you no longer have those fears.

For somebody who. Let's put them in your exact same situation. Maybe they're looking around their life, their career. Let's focus just on career. and they're unhappy. And, but it's like, why I can't go do something else. Like I'm not good enough to go do this other thing. And I might as well just stick with this thing.

It's not the best, but whatever it pays the bills and getting through life well enough how would you, you know, speak to somebody who's facing that challenge that is maybe, maybe they're even not admitting that these are fears. They're just like, man, maybe I don't want to do it. What is it that you would want to say to them or encourage them to just.

Like dip their toe into the possibility of something new.

Michael Anderson: So a couple of different layers here. I'm going to go into this cause I think that's such a good question. 


Psychological Flexibility and Facing Fears
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Michael Anderson: So one thing I talked to talk to my clients a lot about is we at the root of a lot of our suffering. So there's this, there's this principle in psychology called psychological flexibility. Okay.

And psychological flexibility, Is this very similar to physical flexibility, right? If you went to a physical personal trainer and said, listen, I got a big problem. Like I can't touch my toes. I can't touch my toes. Something's wrong with my body. I'm broken. I don't know what to do. I'm panicking here, right?

The personal trainer would probably say like, okay, hang on, take a deep breath. Your body's not broken. You're just not very flexible and we can give you skills and things to do to become more flexible. It is the same with our psychological flexibility. People come into therapy and really feeling like, I don't know what to do with these thoughts and these emotions that I'm experiencing.

I feel like I'm broken. I don't know what's wrong with me. And so much of healing is learning. Okay. Actually, you're not broken. You're just psychologically inflexible. You don't know how to touch your toes yet. See that a healed person is not somebody who no longer feels pain. It's not somebody who no longer has negative thoughts.

It's no longer somebody who's never uncomfortable. Like that is not the definition of healing, of healed. A healed person is somebody who knows how to respond with those parts of themselves, with curiosity, with compassion. And with flexibility to be able to say, yeah, I'm having these fear. Like I want to go do something different, my career.

And the moment I think about that, all these thoughts come in that say, I can't do it. It's not worth it. You'll just fail like whatever it is. And I'm just, I'm inflexible with those thoughts. I have very rigid responses to them. My very rigid inflexible responses. You're right. I'm going to stop thinking about this.

Let's go back to what's comfortable. Right. But if you're actually willing to get curious. sit with those thoughts and let them actually be there. Like actually let them be there without this like feeling of I've got to make all the uncomfortable feelings go away. And then just put a premium on being flexible rather than being comfortable.

Right. Okay. Am I willing to actually sit with these thoughts and now carry them with me while I move forward in a way that's aligned my values. I tell clients all the time, one of the most helpful things that I ever do is whenever I get a thought of like, Oh, you can't write a Jones book. Instead of trying to prove it wrong, or instead of trying to go through all the reasons why that thought's wrong, or Instead of being like, oh yeah, you're right, mind.

I can't. You're right. What I do instead is I just say Thank you, mind. Appreciate the input. I appreciate you. I appreciate your, your, with your guidance here. I appreciate you giving me your input. I appreciate it. Do you want to come along with me now while I write a children's book? I'm going to do this.

You're welcome to come along with me and just inviting this, that exercise of inviting those thoughts to come along with you.


Embracing Psychological Flexibility
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Angelo Santiago: Yeah, psychological flexibility. I hadn't heard that one. I like it. I think one of the, the, the key steps that you've mentioned there of like sitting with the thoughts, sitting with the discomfort is, and I think I was sharing a little bit with you before we started recording about Learning to sit with myself and just like my mind just wants to keep racing and wants to do other things or distract myself from the discomfort of just sitting and accepting the fact that right now things aren't going the way that I want them to go.

Let me just like make myself busy instead.

Michael Anderson: Yeah, totally. That's the that is that's not just a you thing, that's like a human experience to try and avoid discomfort, right? With there's a lot of stuff on that, but I really do believe that so much suffering. 


The Power of Surrender and Acceptance
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Michael Anderson: Nine, you know, 99%, that's a made up stat, but go with it. 99% of suffering decreases significantly when we practice surrendering, when we just practice letting what is. right? And instead of making the goal of our life to be avoiding pain and discomfort at all costs, learn instead of that being our focus, let the focus be living in line with our values, right? Doing things that matter to us. Let that be the focus of our lives and let the pain be there without trying to fight it.

It's so important.

Angelo Santiago: So important. 


Facing Fears and Overcoming Failure
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Angelo Santiago: And what, what came to mind for me as you, you shared that is this idea that goes back to what you said. Like you're facing the fears. Wasn't just like a moment in time that flipped the switch. Now you're somebody different. this acceptance of like who you are in the moment and knowing that ahead of this moment, there is more, you know, there's something new.

There's an there's it's, it's the way I like to look at it is, it's Is life, if I just took a snapshot of, let's say I'm having I had a huge quote unquote failure in my something terrible happened. And I sit just in that moment and I get stuck in that moment. I get, I get stuck in the sensation of not being enough of feeling like you know, feeling like crap of just like, well, this is just how my whole life is going to be.

This is just me. I am a failure, not like this failure, but like, I am this, am not worthy. But if I look at it as like a journey, this is a moment in time of my journey and ahead tomorrow, there's more coming, you know, that can totally change this. And I can look back in this moment, be like, wow, I learned so much from this experience.

As long as I don't allow myself to get stuck, can I be in, in the journey? And when we watch movies or read stories or You know, epic myths and stuff like there's always that moment for the character where everything seems like they're falling apart, but then get to the end of the story and it's this incredible ending, like, how can we look at our lives?

How can I look at my life of this continuum from start to finish and knowing that this was a pivotal moment, not something that. Has just stopped me in my tracks completely. I don't know if that, that resonates with you at all.

Michael Anderson: A hundred percent. 


The Hero's Journey: Reframing Our Stories
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Michael Anderson: I there's actually a whole, like therapeutic approaches. There's a therapy, therapeutic approach called narrative therapy that kind of uses some of that ideas. And in my own life, I do that all the time, right? If something really negative happens or if I like mess up or fail, or let's say I'm not the husband or the father, I want to be like, whatever.

I'll often think to myself, okay, hold on. Let me pause here. If I was the hero of this story. What would I do next? And that, that's that always helps something to shift inside my brain and just realizing like the story doesn't end here. I think this actually can become something really beautiful if I can integrate this into my whole story.

Right. And so I resonate with it so much.

Angelo Santiago: So I love this conversation and I want to, this, this idea of like being the hero of your own story. I want to talk to, to men who are listening or who are watching this. 


Balancing Fatherhood and Self-Care
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Angelo Santiago: And this idea that. You know, let's talk about becoming fathers, becoming parents, because like we talked about early on, like so much changes in our life.

And for a lot of men, I've seen them fall into this, this trap of, they want to give so much to their, their kids and their families that they sacrifice to a point of like leaving nothing left for themselves. You know, they're just kind of like giving and giving and nonstop which is I think a beautiful theory of like how much men want to give to others to take care of their families.

But part of my work and, and I always like to talk to people about it is like the importance of, of taking care of ourselves too, of, having it not be about sacrifice, having it be about devotion and can be for your family and your kids and also like they need you to your fullest capacity.

So. In, in the work that you've done in family therapy what are some of the things that you see men coming to you to speak about where they feel a little lost, maybe as new fathers, or maybe as like father, like father of many kids that is just like they got nothing less than left for themselves?

What would you want to say to them in that moment?

Michael Anderson: First off, I love your thoughts, man. I thought I love the idea of devotion versus sacrifice. And it made me think of. Something I would, if any bothers in that spot, I'd ask them first to take this reflection here. 


Addressing Shame and Self-Worth
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Michael Anderson: If this might not be the case for you, but just take this and just at least think about it and just reflect on how much of my go, go, go giving, giving, giving, not doing anything for myself, but giving it all to my spouse and my kids, which on its face is like a really noble thing.

How much of that is actually coming from a place of shame rather than a place of fullness. How, how much are you operating? Cause I know I'm just speaking from experience. I was go, go, go, give, give, give nothing for myself because it's operating under this belief of, I am not worth investing into myself or another really kind of cousin belief, right?

I am not enough, but if I can give everything my family, then I'll finally be enough. I'll finally be good I would just first ask. Dads to just be real with themselves and just reflect is any of your go go go give give give Coming from a place of shame rather than coming from a place of fullness If it is, then that's okay, that's okay, like, there's no, we don't need to shame the shame.

Like, there's nothing wrong with you for doing that. It's coming from this really good place that you want to be the best father and husband that you can be. But now I'm going to ask that dad to just, like, be willing to get curious with this idea that actually you, what your parent, what your family needs is the best version of you.

That's what they need. And to give, give, give and to go, go, go. My on its face look really noble. But if it's coming from a place of shame, it's actually coming from this place of self-protection rather than this place of abundance. Right? Does that make sense?

Angelo Santiago: Yeah,

Michael Anderson: And so just not only do you do your parent, do, do your does, do your, not only does your family, sorry, for some reason.

I was like, that was a really hard phrase to get out of my mouth. 


The Importance of Modeling Self-Care
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Michael Anderson: Not only does your family need you to give and to sacrifice, yes, and be devoted to them, but also like your kids need to see you model what it looks like to take care of yourself. that is such important parenting, like you, you have to, like, if we can model for our kids what it looks like to set boundaries, to invest in ourselves and to show them, hey, dad believes that he is worth investing in. myself enough to invest in. And I'm gonna model that for you because you're good. You, you are worth investing in as well. And so we, it's so important to model that for our kids.

Angelo Santiago: Yeah, the modeling is, I just want to touch on that for a second because it's, it's always very possible. One of the questions to also ask is, is this what I saw my dad do, right? Is this, it's where I learned it from, or maybe my mom too. It doesn't necessarily has to be the, the, the male or the female parent, but where did I learn this from?

Michael Anderson: Yeah.

Angelo Santiago: that was what it meant to be a man was that, you know what, you just give, give, give, and you like, right. But I've done all your boundaries and that's it. You're just kind of like the workhorse for the family and you're not worthy of anything else. And, and once you realize that, can you be an acceptance?

Like, Oh man, yeah, that's what I saw. Like one deep love for whoever it is that I saw doing that that where they learned it from. Right. But like, I get to model something different for my kids. And that, what you were talking about, the, the shame is that that's, You know, in, in the, the coaching that I do, which is based on Terry real's relational life therapy, which is that one down and boundary lists.

And it's like, you can't have a good relationship if you're in that one down position, or if you're in that one up position, it's like, where can we meet ourselves right in the middle where there's that level of, of self worth that it's like, can I bring myself up out of the shame? Can I accept that that's there?

And now what do I need to do to lift myself up? And that's what. I would say it's a lot of what you're describing as like the inner work, like the inner healing. And I love how you describe the like, it does when you are a quote unquote healed person, it doesn't mean these things. It just means you have a capacity, a new understanding that sometimes that shame still creeps in, but you're able to see it, like love yourself through it, lift yourself up and then be that, that man, that father, that husband, that leader, that community member, that.

Therapist that coach, whatever it is that you are and meet somebody right there in the middle.

Michael Anderson: So good. And like, not only, even more specifically to of like, with like that that piece of time, like loving yourself and bringing it, live just about that shame, like even learning how to love that part of you that uses shame. That part of you that has has a mistaken belief that oh, this is how I get myself to improve This is how I get myself to be better is through like kicking the crap out of myself Right and learning how to love that part right now.

That's a part that took on that job Probably because it was either modeled. That's how it was modeled to it Right or it had experiences growing up not even with like your family your parents Like you said you're like I didn't grow up in like a really Punitive household or anything like that, but society will just teach us the best way to talk to ourselves, right?

And just when, when my, when my shame part talks to me, I've practiced really being like, you know what? Hey, I'm not mad at you for saying that, like, like I get it, but that's why you feel like you need to talk to me. And just so you know, we're going to do a new way. We're going to be, we're going to, and just learning how to love even that part of you that uses shame.

Angelo Santiago: The, the, the fact that you're right. Society will teach us, culture will teach us like movies will teach us TV shows, but everything that we consume is teaching us something. And I have this story and I don't have any data to back it up, but it's, I do have the sense that, that men are stepping up to the plate, they are showing up to do whatever their inner work is, whether it's trauma related.


Men's Emotional Connection and Community
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Angelo Santiago: You know, whether it's like their inner child work, whether it's just looking at their family of origin, stepping into therapy, stepping into being supported through coaching men's retreats, all these things, like I have this sense that men are, are, are finally, and I'm. Evidence of that because who I was several years ago is not the man that you're talking to today.

Like he exists. That's part of my story. But I said, I didn't get stuck in that part of my story. The journey has. In the world that you're in with both the family therapy, the coaching, the speaking, I know that you're slowing a little bit, but for to make room for your family. But have seen that to be true in your experience as well?

Do you see more men showing up at your therapy practice? Do you see more men actually stepping up to be therapists? Because I know it's also that's a very female dominant. Career field, like what have you seen in, in your world to maybe suggest that is true or maybe that, you know what, there's still a long way to go.

Michael Anderson: Yeah, totally. I have seen Yeah, therapy is definitely a female dominated industry. Anecdotally, I'm in a very small pocket of the therapy space, right? But anecdotally, I'm seeing more men step up into that, in that space. I think what I'm seeing the most of, which I think is awesome, is community. I'm seeing more communities pop up.

The I'm seeing more like men's groups, men's retreats, right? Men forums, men, like opportunities for men to experience connection outside of their immediate family. That's what I'm seeing the most of. And and I think there is this shift. I think they're, they're absolutely, again, I don't have data to back this up either, but there's two anecdotal experiences here.

So there's gotta be something here, right? Like I'm seeing more men shift. Like the old way is changing. Like men are putting more and more of a premium on emotional connection with their kids. Men are putting more and more of a premium on being a present father. I'm realizing that what's been done in past generations doesn't have to continue, doesn't have to, right?

You can do something new and so that compared with more community I think are two much needed shifts in this space and I'm super glad to see them happening.

Angelo Santiago: Yeah. Me too. Likewise, that for me certainly was the catalyst for so much of the my, my own journey, my own story was stepping into a men's community space and going on a retreat and actually seeing in other men, the possibility of like another way. Right. Right. And Hearing their stories and understanding what they've been through and looking at myself and be like, that's not that much different from mine and how they are.

It's very similar to like 12 step programs, right? You step in on your at a first meeting, and you see these people who have suffered in the same that you have, and they have something that you want, and now you're just getting to learn, like, well, how do they do it? So it's just this community. Getting to realize that like, oh, I'm not alone in the, where they use quite a bit in the suffering, like I'm not alone in the suffering, like okay to talk about it and to hear other people's stories as well, which is so much of what this, this podcast and we are the men is about

Michael Anderson: Well that that's exactly I was gonna say when you said when you were bringing that up is Every man feels like they're alone in this, right? And and I, I, I, I just, that's where I think the real value of these types of communities and spaces are, is just realizing like, oh my goodness, all these things that I was positive I was the only man going through this stuff, only man doing this, only man experiencing it, that the, the breaking down those walls of isolation are so important.

For, for men's health. So I, yeah, I'm super glad that shift is happening.

Angelo Santiago: me too, man. Me too, Michael. And this conversation gets to be a part of that. Just you know, if, if you're watching or listening, And it means you're on the journey as well. So thank you for, for being here listening to us just talk about this and be a part of this conversation, you know, connect with other men, connect with one of us before we get to that point of how they could connect with you, Michael, and learn more about your book, your, your work any of the other topics we've touched on.

You know, sometimes we move kind of quick. I actually feel like, man, we've gone all over the place in conversation, but it's been so good. Is there anything that maybe you came on here that you wanted to share with the listeners, or maybe that we kind of touched on, but didn't get to go deeper on, I just want to give you the mic for a little bit to share what's on your heart or something that you feel is really important to come out right now.

Michael Anderson: Well, thank, thank you. You know, something we kind of touched on that I just would love to just maybe highlight here. I'm a very big believer the more and more I learn about trauma, the more and more I work with men, the more and more I, I'm on my own journey. Being a husband and a father, the more I believe that at the heart of all healing is connection.

And I believe that there's two levels of connection. There's connection with ourself and there's connection with others. And anywhere in your life where there's suffering, it's probably because one of those two layers of connection are not happening. Either we're disconnecting from ourselves through numbing, through avoiding, through running away, through dismissing, whatever.

Or we're engaging in behaviors that's disconnecting us with other people. And I just really believe that sometimes where we need to start is learning how to reconnect with ourself. And stop running from what's happening inside of us. And the ability to find real genuine connection is what heals.

And that's why I do love that you're doing things like this podcast, creating this space for men to feel like there's a chance for connection and connection so hard because connection requires vulnerability. And vulnerability is like comfortable, right? On the other side of what I love to, what I tell clients is on the other side of discomfort is vulnerability.

And what's on the other side of vulnerability is connection. And so you have to be willing to embrace discomfort in order to finally get there. But if you're willing to do it, man, it's transformative.

Angelo Santiago: Gold. That's gold. I love it, man. And. I, I resonate with everything you said, you know, one, another saying from one of my teachers, like you can either choose to be protected or you can choose to be vulnerable, but you can't be both at the same time. And in, in, that vulnerability is where the connection comes.

So as, as my journey, and I know for so many men, we. We lean on protection. We lean on the armor. We lean on the, you know, the stoicism. We lean the not letting people see our pain or hurt or sadness. And that blocks us from vulnerability and that blocks us from connection. So I love that you, you closed out on that.

And there's just one thing I just like got chills as you were talking. Cause I want to add a third piece here, which is not something I talk a lot about on, we are the men, but it's something that I want to moving forward. And I will, and maybe we'll, we'll get on another show and talk about more is there's, there's a third level of connection, which is like a spiritual connection.

I feel like there's about a connection to something greater. And, and I'm not here to tell anybody what they're supposed to believe in or, or what, but that principle that you talked about early in the episode early on this conversation about surrender is, is a spiritual principle that we can go super deep in.

Maybe that's a topic for the next time we talk. I love what you said. Connecting to ourselves, connecting to others. So key. Before we close any teaser you want to drop about the next book coming out.

Michael Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, I'm, I'm sealing that third level of connection. Just so you

Angelo Santiago: Okay, . You got it. It's all

Michael Anderson: it's not, sorry, maybe I should ask, can I steal that third level? Is that okay?

Angelo Santiago: it. I mean, it didn't, I didn't come up with it. It came to me somehow. So it's for everybody.

Michael Anderson: Okay, cool. Nice. Right on. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. What'd you ask? What

Angelo Santiago: Oh, the, the book, the, you the next, the, the second book in the series for Jungle Tales is out soon. Anything you want to drop in here before we close out?

Michael Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. Second books dropping probably in October or October. First book you can buy on Amazon mean, mean the world. If you went and purchased it, anyone listening. And yeah, you can buy it on Amazon if it's okay. I'll send you the link to the book. If you wouldn't mind putting, anyone wants to connect with me, I'm I, I'm active on LinkedIn.

And so the only problem is there's like a thousand, seven, Michael Anderson's Justin. My neighborhood. So I'll, if it's okay with you, I'll send you a link to my LinkedIn profile as well. And so anyone listening, you're more than welcome to DM me connect. There's any man who wants that I have on my LinkedIn, there's a free training I just put up about how to help overcome pornography.

I do that a lot with men. And so if any man wants that free resource, I don't even ask you for your email. I try to be the least spammy as possible. You can literally just go click on it. And watch the training. I won't ask you for your email or anything like that. You can just get it. So I just wanted to create a free resource for men out there.

So anyways, those are a few things for men to look out for.

Angelo Santiago: Beautiful. So, we'll we will get all the links in the show notes to connect with the correct Michael Anderson. 'cause I know they're, like you said, there's plenty of 'em out

Michael Anderson: We're all great. You can't go wrong. Whoever you end up connecting with, but

Angelo Santiago: but if you want to talk about, yeah, if you want to talk about children's books, family therapy, you know, unhooking from the grips of, of pornography or any of the other topics that we talked about in this conversation, make sure to check out the show notes.

I also have the link to the Amazon jungle tales book for you to check out and purchase. So you can connect for you as a parent to have these impactful conversations with your kids so that. You know, we can model to this next generation of what, you know, what a healthy mentally healthy, emotional resilient human can look like, because, because like I was saying, we're all stepping up now.

And now we get to show the next generation up something, you know, gosh, there's so much to talk about on this topic, but it's like, it's really just nurturing what they already know. It's about not shutting down what they already know, you know, of like of emotional regulation. So.

Michael Anderson: That's so

Angelo Santiago: Well, we'll put a pause here.

We'll connect once again in the future Michael, cause this has been a lot of fun. I think there's been a lot of really good information and wisdom that's been dropped here for those that are listening. And you, anything else you want to add before we close out?

Michael Anderson: No, that's awesome. Angelo. Thanks so much for having me, man. That's so

Angelo Santiago: Absolutely. Before we leave though, I want to do one thing I do with all my guests. I want to invite you to a little bit of a visualization to take a nice deep breath. Close down your eyes, if that feels good, and if you're listening or watching, you can do this with us. And Michael, I want you to see yourself on an open field. Thousands of men are with you, and you are about to address the world. You begin to speak, and I want you to finish this sentence. We are the men who

Michael Anderson: not afraid to go inside and heal what needs healing so that we can show up better for our families.

Angelo Santiago: Beautiful, Michael. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us on We Are The Men. It would mean the world to me. To wherever you're listening to this podcast to rate and follow us so that we could share more of this information with men all over the world. 

I'm Angelo Santiago and we are the men.