Better Husband

002|How To Be a S.T.R.O.N.G. Husband With Kristal DeSantis

• Angelo Santiago • Episode 52

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In this episode, I am joined by Kristal DeSantis, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and we discuss themes from her book 'Strong: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man.' Key topics include evolving paradigms of masculinity, the foundational elements of a STRONG relationship (Safety, Trust, Respect, Openness, Nurturing, Generosity), and practical advice for nurturing emotional connection. We also address a question about maintaining intimacy and growth in marriage.
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Connect with Angelo
Website: https://www.angelosantiago.com
YouTube: https://youtube.com/@better.husband
Email: angelo@angelosantiago.com

Buy Kristal's Book: Strong: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man
https://www.amazon.com/Strong-Relationship-Field-Guide-Modern/dp/1959099027/
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00:00 Introduction to Better Husband
00:07 Meet Kristal DeSantis LMFT
02:35 The Old vs. New Paradigm of Masculinity
07:54 The STRONG Relationship Model
15:40 Applying the STRONG Model in Real Life
20:25 The Golden Rule vs. The Platinum Rule
22:39 Understanding Your Partner's Needs
25:03 The Three P's of Nurturing a Relationship
25:53 Applying the Three P's in Daily Life
32:39 Encouraging Self-Celebration and Validation
34:45 Closing Thoughts and Final Advice
37:03 Scenario: Navigating Intimacy Challenges in Marriage
45:13 Final Words and Resources

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Angelo Santiago:

Welcome to Better Husband, the show that helps you answer the simple question: How can I be a better husband? I'm Angelo Santiago. And today I'm joined by Kristal DeSantis. Kristal is a licensed marriage and family therapist who is passionate about men's mental health and healthy modern relationships. Her recent book strong, a relationship field guide for the modern man is all about the challenges that men face in our current culture and steps that we can take to build strong, healthy, intimate marriages in this episode, we'll be talking about the old paradigm of masculinity compared to the new opportunity for men to step into, the five things needed for a strong relationship. And we'll focus on three points that can help you nurture the emotional connection in your marriage. So stick around. You don't want to miss this. Hey Kristal Thank you so much for being here. I'm super excited to connect with you on your book and everything that you are helping and guiding men towards being better husbands and hopefully answer some questions for the listeners of what they can do today. I'm excited. Thank you for saying yes to being here. And it's an honor to have you as a guest.

Kristal DeSantis:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for this conversation.

Angelo Santiago:

When I saw your work and your profile about everything that you're doing out there, and particularly this book that you wrote, I kind of, something hit me. I was like, this has to be the first person I have as a guest on this new podcast. Like I just, the work you were doing and what you were sharing and your specific focus on men in relationship was like, this is exactly the work that was in integral for me in my life and why I'm so dedicated to sharing, you know, this information with other men out there, because I feel like there isn't as much access that's focused just on men of like, what's going on in our modern culture. Why are so many of us struggling to be better partners, better husbands, and why sometimes the messages gets mixed. So your book strong. Right. A relationship field guide for the modern man is all about that. And I mean, I just want to jump into it and, and start talking about some of the points. You shared the book with me. It was amazing when I read through it, I highly recommend it to all of the listeners, we'll have a link in the show notes for it. And the book opens up with this idea of the old strong man versus the new strong man. And you describe this old strong kind of paradigm of a man as being the protector, right, to, to offer protection. Provision and procreation, and you said that's shifted now and what what's needed is for men to embrace this ability to offer what is now being asked for in relationship. So share a little bit about your thoughts on the old strong man. Like, what are those things about? Where did that come from? And what is the new strong man look like?

Kristal DeSantis:

I was really fascinated by this, you know, in my work because so often kind of like you mentioned, I would see men come into therapy, just really confused about why their partner wasn't happy or what they were not doing in the relationship because, you know, The roles of men have changed very quickly in a very short period of time. Right? And so the paradigms of, you know, a man is supposed to be a protector. He's supposed to be a provider, and he's supposed to be able to give his wife babies if she wants them. I mean, that was a pretty, uh, Concrete script for generations of men, right? Maybe even the generation of parents that your listeners grew up with. Right? So I think that's really what I saw was, you know, why isn't this old script working anymore? I'm trying to protect my family. I'm trying to provide, I, you know, We have a kid. What's not working here? Um, and so what I started to get into, you know, listening to women and then the work that I did. I mean, I've been a therapist now for 10 years. And then, of course, all the research and the training is, you know, also wanted to make it clear that, you know, being a strong man is not the problem, right? So this is not the binary of like the old strong man. And now men are supposed to be subservient and weak. And like, you know, the roles are just reversed. Now it's the era of the strong woman. Um, in, in that, so that's part of why I named my book strong and really focused on that is because What does the new strong man look like and how is it maybe more nuanced, more evolved, more mature than these almost like caricatures of what masculinity looked like in the past. Right. So yeah, in the past being a protector was physical protection. Being a provider was financial provision and being a procreator was, you know, that was it. You weren't really necessarily expected to be involved in the parenting part of Piece of the equation, Um, and all that has changed the modern woman and their healthy man as well is not looking to be shoehorned into these kind of objectified roles Right. Um, and so really what i'm seeing is What does it mean to be a present parent and partner, right? And how can you, as a man, maybe inhabit your protector, but in a slightly different way? Maybe it shows up as emotional protection rather than, you know, gosh, baby, I'm hitting the gym so I can fight anybody that tries to break into our house. It's like, yeah, that's cool. And maybe emotional protection is really what feels better these days. Um. And same thing with financial provision versus, you know, the provision of your presence, uh, provision of

Angelo Santiago:

Right.

Kristal DeSantis:

and all of these other intangibles that are really what, um, I saw make the difference when it comes to the happiness and fulfillment of a modern relationship.

Angelo Santiago:

Yeah, I love that. And I've, I've thought about this and shared about this a lot about this, that way, exactly what you talked about being, yes, it used to be this, this old paradigm of providing, it's like a roof over the head, the. Food on the table, right? The finances are taken care of. And yes, that's still something that anybody wants in any relationship, regardless of who's bringing in, like that's an important, um, aspect of our life that we want to feel safe and comfortable in, but what does it look like to provide your. Your love, your energy, your attention, your respect, like all these things that is, is more than a measurable thing on a paycheck or, you know, your, what you drive in and all those things. And the 1 thing that men run into a lot of challenges that I've seen, and I know I've even experienced this is, is when we were trying to embody this old paradigm of. Protector, provider, procreator, you know, here I am. It's like, okay, I feel like I can protect my family. I provided enough and I've had children, but something's still not working. Like our, my marriage is not going well. I don't feel good. Like it makes me feel like there's nothing else I can do. I feel like I'm not enough. And that's where I think a lot of us get lost. So I want to read a quote from your book and, and just allow you to, Talk about what the refinement of those skills are. So, you write, Men can still be strong in a relationship. You can still inhabit your protector, your provider, your procreator. But let's refine those skills to be applicable to a modern relationship and attractive to the modern woman. So as you go into that, you then start refining what is a strong relationship. And I think that's a beautiful segue into, uh, laid out for us. So you write strong S T R O N G. What do those stand for? And then we'll get into those aspects of a strong relationship.

Kristal DeSantis:

So when I break it down, and I love that it just worked out that it was the acronym strong, um, because foundationally what women look for in a partner is safety. All right. So that's the S of strong is at the foundation of any healthy relationship is we feel safe with each other. And like in the past, maybe it was that physical safety, right? It's like, are you big and strong enough to beat up anybody who tries to come and kidnap me? Great. I'll pick you. but now what does it mean to feel safe in a relationship? And that's where it's more about that emotional safety. Do you know how to regulate your emotions when you're upset? Do you know how to help calm my emotions when I'm upset? Do you know how to hold space for my emotions? So all of that is still safety. It just, again, is slightly different than big, strong men, right? Punch lion. It's just slightly different, right? And I break safety down into 4 different components but we can talk about that maybe later. Um, Because after safety comes trust, right? So are you a man who is trustworthy? Cause that is something I see so much in relationships when they come in, in crisis is there's been some kind of betrayal. Some level of trust has been broken. I. You know, you promised me something you didn't follow through. It makes me worry about if I can see a future with you, if I can't trust you. Um, and all of that causes so much instability and conflict in a relationship. So that was something else. It's like, if you are a safe man, able to provide safety in your relationship. And if you are a trustworthy man, right? If, if your word means something, um, that's super important in the relationship. And then because then after that comes respect, which I heard from a lot of men that, you know, I want to feel respected by my partner. I want them to look at me and admire me. I want them to talk well about me to their friends. I want them to teach our children that I am somebody, you know, when dad says something, it means something, right? Um, but not really knowing how to get that right. But you can feel it when respect has eroded in a relationship. Yeah. And John Gottman,

Angelo Santiago:

Definitely.

Kristal DeSantis:

talks about how contempt is the opposite of respect and contempt is one of those things that it's, you know, what he calls is one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse when it comes to a relationship, right? Um, so the opposite of that, the respect is so important. And often what I saw is that there were some men in relationships that were trying to demand respect without having the kind of internal gravitas. To actually command the respect that they were looking for, which then made them feel loved and important and admired. Right? Um, but again, it all kind of tracks with each other, right? You can't trust somebody you don't feel safe with. You can't respect somebody you can't trust. so that's where I kind of started to build on this model of like, okay, it really starts with safety. you can trust them. And then when you can trust them, then you can respect them. Right. Um, and then, so this kind of STR the first portion of the strong model is really about relationships, survival skills. Like if you don't have these three elements, your relationship is going to be in constant conflict. There's going to be contempt. There's going to be, you know, betrayals. It's just not going to feel good at all. Um, but once you get that under your belt, Then we can move on to the ONG part of the rest of the strong lotto, which is really about thriving and taking your relationship, you know, to the next level. So O is for openness, right? So a man that can be open about the fact that, you know, maybe he's got strengths, but he's also got areas of challenge, and here's where he's working on growing. And, you know, the, understanding that we are not static individuals, right? The more we live life, the more experiences we have, we are going to grow. Um, and being able to be open about that of, you know, the man that you are when you're 25 is not going to be the man that you are when you're 55, you know, mind, body, and soul. So being able to be open about the changes that you're experiencing with your partner helps you to grow together and not apart. Um, then N is nurturing, which again, I think it's this trope, right? That's like, Oh yeah, no, I gave her the baby, but then the woman nurtures the baby. Right. That was the old model, right? I, maybe some of us can think of our grandfathers or even our fathers that like, wouldn't even change a diaper or they didn't know where their baby's like. How do I keep this thing alive? Like, mom, help me. Right. Um, and that's very much changed, right? The modern father wants to be involved. Um, you know, there's lots of data to back this up. And so really just acknowledging that, you know, as a man tapping into your nurturer is such a crucial way of staying present and involved in not only your children's lives, but also recognizing that marriage, which used to be the, you know, um, Well, I do. I do. And you know, we're not going to get divorced because you know, the church doesn't allow it or society doesn't allow it. Or, you know, the wife maybe is like, I can't afford to a life if I get divorced. So I guess we're stuck. Um, now it's really about, you know, if you don't nurture your marriage and it dies, it, people will like, it will be done, right? It's not a given anymore.

that your marriage if you don't don't nurture it. Right? And so,

Kristal DeSantis:

after their children left the house or after a divorce. Um, because they had just never thought that it was something that had to be nurtured until the circumstances or the environment changed. And then they realized they didn't have the skills to nurture those relationships. And then that can be a very hard and sad awakening. Or reckoning, um, which is part of why I was like, we got to, we got to do it from the beginning, right? We got to

Angelo Santiago:

Yeah. Mm

Kristal DeSantis:

and, you know, having children, all of that, like, let's put it in from day one. then the last piece, the G is just generosity, which again, you know, kind of when I was looking at research and things about like what makes a relationship great, right? What takes it from just, right. You know, yeah, that looks good on paper to what does it feel like when you're in a healthy, thriving, strong relationship is that last little element of like what I call kind of the fairy dust of the relationship. It's like, That sense of generosity that your partner didn't have to go out of their way to, you know, grab you that type of coffee you like, but they did, you know, or they didn't have to take the trash cans back in when they got home. That's kind of your thing. But they did, know,

Angelo Santiago:

hmm.

Kristal DeSantis:

looking for those little ways to make each other's lives just that much better by being together. Right? Um, and that's that kind of generosity mindset of, I'm not thinking about it in like a tit for tat. Like, well, what have you done for me lately? But just, I'm just thinking about ways that can make your life better because I love you and you're my person. Um, and so that the ONG piece is really about taking the relationship for the long haul, um, keeping it alive, keeping it thriving, keeping it vibrant, um, and making sure it thrives.

Angelo Santiago:

I love that Kristal and I love that you've broken it up into these two aspects because it, you know, whether you're watching or listening to this, uh, show and. Maybe your relationship is in a funk right now. Maybe your marriage is struggling. Maybe you're wondering if this is going to last and you can focus on safety, trust, and respect. Are these things present? Where is your part as, as a part of this relationship to bring more of that in? And what do you need for yourself to feel safe, to feel that you're trusted, right? It's all there. But then if you're listening or watching. And you're like, you know what, there's so much safety and trust and respect. We've done so much work on this, whether it's through couples counseling or whatever it is that you've done, where do we go from here? This is enough. Well, no, there's more, there's more layers. You can take your marriage from good to great, from great to incredible, from incredible to miraculous, wherever you want to go, there's always room for more. And I think that's important for us to remember to not settle in the Just like in a level of acceptability, right? I don't know if that's a word acceptance of just, uh, the status quo. Like let's show others what it's like to have an incredible relationship. And I want to highlight something. You said that you said we are not static individuals. And that's something that the first episode of Better Husband is all about. That like change is. Is almost a requirement in long term relationship in long term marriage, either you're going to change or your partner is going to change something in the dynamic is going to change. Children are going to come in. Maybe there's going to be a job loss. Maybe like you have to be adaptable and be willing to it. to move and flow and grow as a team, as a couple. Um, and so sometimes as men, we get, you know, it's like, no, no, this is the way I am. It's like, no, you have to be able to soften a little bit and be able to, to explore these things as you develop and as you change. And so that was a huge understanding for me in my marriage. Um, And I don't know if you've seen in your research that sometimes is that a challenging thing for men to accept? Like, you know, it's like, well, this is just the way I am versus, you know, Oh, I understand now that like, for this to work, there has to be a little more.

Kristal DeSantis:

Absolutely. And I think it does go back to, you know, when things are predictable, they can feel safe, right? And that ultimately part of what our brains are really good at is finding patterns so that we can feel safe in our environments, right? It's like when you walk into your home and everything's where you put it and everything is like, Yeah, it feels good. I come home and it's a little bit chaotic. Your brain is a little like, Oh, God, here we go again. Right? Um, and so that's just part of the way our brains work is it links kind of familiarity and patterns with a sense of safety and a sense of, you know, chaos and unfamiliar unknown with a little bit of a sense of fear, right? I mean, it's kind of classic fear of the unknown. Right. So I think that's a very human thing. And it's also again, recognizing that for a lot of time, a lot of history, men were supposed to be in charge of maintaining the safety of the environment, right? If a lion came in and ate your family, well, whose fault is it? Who wasn't being a good protector here? Right? And so that's sometimes what I see is like with men, it's the idea that if I can control my environment, then I can control what happens. Then maybe I can be safe. Maybe I can keep my family safe if I control what happens. Um, which I always want to highlight kind of the fragility of that perspective because nature is not on your side. You know, life and nature

Angelo Santiago:

Yeah.

Kristal DeSantis:

about movement and growth. Right. And like you said, I mean, no matter how much you say, I'm not changing. I've liked the same, you know, peanut butter sandwich every day since I was five. And I've, you know, waking up and done the same routine every day. It's like, yes, but life has changed around you, right?

Angelo Santiago:

Right.

Kristal DeSantis:

so again, recognizing you can grow your resilience, you can grow your skills so that you can learn to be adaptable rather than seeing any change as a threat to your capability, to your competence, to your ability to keep environment safe and stable. that make sense? Like

Angelo Santiago:

Yeah, absolutely.

Kristal DeSantis:

Yeah.

Angelo Santiago:

So I want to get into the nurturing, the relationship, which you talked about as one of your favorite, um, chapters in the book, I, there was a lot of really great information in there that I found that I would. Uh, definitely want to focus in on before we get to that one. I want to give those, uh, the audience here, something to, to walk away with as like something you can start doing today and that for me, I found in your book that, I mean, there's several, but the one that I want to Is this idea of the golden rule versus the platinum rule. So the golden rule, uh, is something that many of us have, have heard. It's it's commonly stated is treat others the way you want to be treated. And I hadn't heard of platinum rule before, but I love it. You write it, treat others the way that they want to be treated. And this is so important in a relationship because. We do have different wants. We do have different desires. We do have different thresholds of like, this is what it looks like for me to feel loved. Um, and so I want to give you the floor a little bit to,

Kristal DeSantis:

have

Angelo Santiago:

of what that could look like for somebody who's listening. That's like, but wait a second, I'm doing my best and it doesn't feel like enough. It's like, well, are you giving them what they are asking for?

Kristal DeSantis:

Yeah. things that I see that works against couples is what I call the assumption of similarity trap, right? The idea that soulmates are supposed to be the same, right? It's like, Oh, you complete me like now we are finally like, Oh, whole. but by by highlighting the golden rule, which is truth. You know, your partner, the way you would want to be treated. So all of that is just like remembering that your partner is a different person than you. And so their likes, their dislikes, their preferences, their love language is not going to be your default and the more you can highlight that, the more you can be curious about, wait a minute, I would get this for me. But if I'm getting it for them, maybe they want something different. It's just going to continue to keep that perspective in mind that they are not me. do they need? That might be different from what I need and how can I be okay with that? Right? Cause I often see that people sometimes get offended or shocked Even if they've been together a long time.

Angelo Santiago:

Yeah, and I don't know if this falls in the right place in your strong relationship acronym, but it's like this. That's what generosity looks like. It's like giving a little bit of myself in order to give. To my partner, because I know, and I'll use my relationship. I know that for my wife, like this is what she loves. Like, yeah, I may love going hiking and being physical and doing all this stuff. But like for her, a great time together is like sitting together and talking and connecting and sharing our, you know, experiences of whatever is this going on. It's very different. And as you know, even though I want to take her on a date and do all these exciting adventure things, what she is willing to do because she's being generous to me, can I also be generous to her? so I want to give it, you know, for the guys out there, uh, something that, that I've learned in, in my training, that I work with couples as well. It's like when your partner is. Uh, they're basically telling you exactly. It is the thing that you can give them. to make the situation better. And so, yes, it's hard to receive a complaint. Sometimes the walls go up and sometimes you feel like you're being put down or insulted. And yes, there's a conversation to be had about like complaining is not the best way to get what you want, but, is coming in, can you listen to what's under the complaint? What is it that's really being desired? And that's what allows you to give your partner they want and to treat them in the way that they want to be treated.

Kristal DeSantis:

And that's absolutely, um, the first thing I guess that I would say is just be curious, Because it's so instinctual, right? If we're hearing a criticism, we get defensive, and then we want to explain why that's not a rational thought, right? Um, but instead get curious, like, if I don't understand why my partner's upset by the thing that I thought was a good idea, then I need to get curious because clearly I went off of what my default was, which didn't land for them. So how can I get more curious? Like, tell me why didn't land for you, because I would like to try something different next time.

Angelo Santiago:

Absolutely. All right. So there's something you can walk away with today. If nothing else, treat the others the way they want to be treated. Start making a list. What is it? The request that your partner has made from you? Your spouse has made from you. And can you start with the list? Um, and being generous and being more nurturing for the relationship by doing those things. three P's of nurturing a relationship. So I'm going to lay them out and then I'm going to read a portion that you wrote in the book. And then I'm going to ask you, you know, tell us what these three P's look like in action. So somebody can actually think about, okay, I see how I can do that. So the three P's of nurturing relationship, according to your book is pride, pain and pleasure. And you write in an unhealthy relationship, there's an absence of pride. An abundance of pain and a lack of pleasure in a healthy relationship. All these things are not only present but acknowledged and used as touch points to nurture the emotional connection of the relationship. So tell us a little bit more about those three peas, what you found and what those look like in action,

Kristal DeSantis:

absolutely. I actually like to talk about it as like the heartbeat. Of a relationship. So I'm like, if you feel like your relationship has flatlined in a way, like maybe you notice you keep talking about like the kids or what you're supposed to do this weekend, or you have these like logistical conversations, but you're not really connecting. This is a way to kind of bring that little heartbeat of the emotional connection back. and it's very simple. You know, what I say is like, you know, at the end of the day or sometime where it's just the two of you sit down and ask each other. these three points. So the high point, right? Ask each other about a point of pride because that also gives you the opportunity to not only learn something about them that they might be proud of, but also gives you a chance to validate them. Right? So again, especially with couples that are busy, too busy jobs, busy with the kids, that conversation, hey, what have you done recently that you were really proud of? And maybe it's something that you didn't expect, right? So maybe in your mind, you're like, didn't she just get that promotion? But maybe what she's proud of is I went to the gym three times this week. And it's like, oh, wow, good job, babe. Yeah, I know that's really important for you. Your health is, you know, you've been working on it. High five, right? And so that's a point of pride that you can share with each other. then a point of pain because one of the things like I name in the in the book is sometimes in an unhealthy relationship, there's a lot of pain just floating around. But it's not used as a point of connection where people can actually provide care for each other. So it's just these two people kind of in their silos in pain on their own, not being able to connect and receive or give care. So checking in about pain is, you know, maybe the downbeat of the heart, the heartbeat. Um, Yeah. But being able to be brave enough to say, and is there something that has caused you pain this week or today and being open for whatever comes? So whether it's, you know, I just had this wicked headache all day or, you know, so physical pain, and then it might be, well, what can I do? Do you want to lay down? Can I get you a glass of water? I'll do the bath with the kids. Or if it's emotional pain, like I've been really hurt that, you know, what you said last night is still just sitting with me and I'm, you know, um, I would still like us to, to process that. And so that again might be a conversation of, okay, well, what can I do to help? Like, how can I, you know, do I need to apologize for that? Do we need to process, do we need a whole conversation about that specifically? Um, and just acknowledge that pain can be a very important part of the bonding of a relationship, because like you said, it gives you that information of what's not working and what can we do better. And it also gives you insight into

Angelo Santiago:

Silence.

Kristal DeSantis:

lot of couples, you know, especially after kids or, you know, busy lives, they, they struggle to connect. And so often what I see is couples don't really have a template for having conversations about pleasure. Right. It's like when you get together, it's hot and heavy, no words needed, like And then it starts to maybe get more challenging or there are more obstacles and there's no, they don't know how to talk about that. Right. Um, and so part of the pleasure conversation is normalizing, like, okay, we checked in about pride. We checked in about pain. Let's check in about pleasure and starting to normalize it. Also pleasure can come in a lot of different forms, right? Right. you know, something give you pleasure today? And it might be, yeah, they, you know, pumpkin spice lattes are back, you know, it's like just a tiny little moment of pleasure that can also be playful,

Angelo Santiago:

Okay.

Kristal DeSantis:

gives my partner pleasure, I can file that away so that I can bring it back and make sure that I'm helping maximize pleasure then also. If you know, she tells me or I hear that like, no, I haven't had any pleasure today. Today was just a big gray blob. Everything felt hard nothing. That also is then the opportunity for you to say, is there anything I can do right now to give you some pleasure? Let's go for a walk around the block. Or I know you love watching the sunset. Let's go sit outside. Or, you know, I, let me run out and get you a pumpkin spice latte. I know from our last conversation. You really like that. Would that help right now? Right? Um, and so again, just kind of making you then a little bit of an arbiter of pleasure in the relationship and then also normalizing those kinds of conversations because then later on, if you do want to talk about sexual pleasure and the, you know, what you can do to increase it again, you can match it with that same energy where it's not Bye. You know, it's not maybe feeling like it's a personal attack. It's simply information. I'm hearing about my partner's experience of pleasure. Um, or if it wasn't that pleasurable, maybe then we can be curious about what can I do to make it more pleasurable for you next time? So anyway,

Angelo Santiago:

I love, I love that framework.

Kristal DeSantis:

Yeah. Mm

Angelo Santiago:

framework cause yeah, it is, there's, there's a depth to it. Right. The explanation is, is important because it's something that you could start applying tonight at the dinner table or before bed. Um, then it's, it's important conversations to have, especially like you said, that we don't always. Feel comfortable talking about the painful parts of our day, right? Maybe some relationships do, but not all do. And we also sometimes don't feel comfortable about asking for something for pleasure, like whether it is, you know, sexual or emotional or, you know, even something just like some nice food or a treat or a gift. Um, or even a conversation that needs to be had. I think it's important to start creating this framework of doing these things when it feels easy so that when things get hard, it's like it's already well established. You're creating the foundation that your entire marriage is built upon. So men, if you're, you know, listening and watching this, Like start taking some notes and, and be the strong one. Be the courageous one to start bringing this into your marriage. Don't wait for your partner to ask for it, right? Like that's the, what you get to provide in your marriage.

Kristal DeSantis:

Yeah. Also, I do want to say that the pride one is actually really important because what I've noticed is a lot of men, you know, maybe we're raised with the message that like being prideful or being braggy is an unattractive trait. And so I hear, and this is dichotomy, right? It was like a man wants to be admired and respected, but then Sometimes when I, you know, I ask couples to do this exercise, the guy will be like, yeah, I don't think of anything I'm proud of. Or like, and the wife might be like, you just got that big old thing. Or you just did that thing. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of dismiss, dismiss. But then again, it's like working against your own needs. And so that also is an opportunity for a man to really claim, like, I am proud of myself. I am proud that I did that. And then to have the experience of a wife validating and being like, babe, you are awesome. You are so, you know, I look up to you and I see you and I just I'm like, that's my man and I'm proud of him. Um, and that's a really powerful experience again when it comes to building that respect, um, in a couple and for a man to really believe that he is admired by his partner, which then links to desire as well, right? I know she likes

Angelo Santiago:

Absolutely.

Kristal DeSantis:

and she desires me.

Angelo Santiago:

Yeah. And I see a lot of men who want to embody that humility, that humbleness, which is, yes, it's, you know, you don't want to be out there to the point of being like, I'm the greatest at absolutely everything and better than, than others. But it's like, can you allow yourself To one be celebrated by others when there's something worthy of celebrating and for you to celebrate yourself. I mean, I love it when I have had a great day and I feel like I just, like, I really nailed it at being a dad and I was a really loving partner and I took care of the house. And at the end of the day, just like, take a moment, be like, man, you know, four years ago, this was not the case. And today, like I I'm proud that this is the man that I'm showing up as in my life, like, this is what I want to be able. To give to others, not only in my family, my community. And it's okay to take that moment of celebration and appreciation for yourself. So, so guys remember to celebrate yourself. Absolutely. So Kristal, I want to close off with, again, I've, I've read a lot of portions of your book in this, in this interview or in this conversation, because I've liked it so much, I want to close off with. One last passage that you wrote that I really enjoyed. Um, I want to let the, everybody who's listening or watching to know that in the show notes, you can find a link to get strong, um, Kristals book. And also I want to give you the opportunity for any closing remarks. You have anything that, you know, people can find you and where they can contact you if they have more questions. And then we were going to close off with a little bit of a scenario that somebody has written about in their marriage. And I wanted to get your take on it. What advice you'd give that person. So first the passage from your book in equal relationship, there's no room for a passive partner. A strong relationship is a mutual venture and equal relationship needs both partners to be equally invested in the nurturing and cultivation of a thriving partnership. You can't row a boat with one boat. Or so I love this passage because it's a reminder that we have our part to play in all aspects of the relationship. So even if you're great at one thing, like, can you step more into the thing that's a little bit uncomfortable? So you're not that passive partner in the nurturing, right? Or in the generosity or in the openness, like, can you bring yourself to all of it and invite your partner as well into all aspects of the relationship too. So with that, um, Kristal, anything you came onto this conversation that you're like, you know, I really wanted people to hear this or anything that we touched on, but you wanted to expand on a little bit before we go into the scenario and close out,

Kristal DeSantis:

Um, you know, just speaking to men, I just want to acknowledge that, you know, it can feel really daunting right now, right? That the rules have changed. The rules have changed. Um, it can feel sometimes kind of hopeless. And so I always want to end on, you know, there is hope. The world has changed. Yes, but there are lots of resources that. Can help you find your place in it that can help you feel empowered, um, in your new role, whatever you choose to, however you choose to show up, um, just making sure that it's, it's authentically yours, um, but there's hope

Angelo Santiago:

And so let's go into this. This is, um, something that's been written about, uh, this man's marriage and I want to get your take on it, see what you get out of it, what recommendations or guidance you'd make, what questions you'd want to ask this person. And if you're listening to this scenario and you can relate to some aspects of it, pay attention because there might be something here for you. So here we go. My wife and I have been happily married for just over 10 years, both late thirties, some bumps along the way, but we're doing great generally. We're best friends and in it for the long haul. A few months ago, my wife completely lost interest in any kind of sexual or physical intimacy. I'm going to try and give some context, and know she's not cheating, and I'm hoping you can help me understand, or sorry, you can hope you can help me be a better husband by navigating this in a way that supports my wife. I think I maybe just not understand women as well as I thought. But here goes. For a good chunk of our marriage, the main issue we had was that I was pretty bad at showing affection. I've always loved my wife and been incredibly attracted to her. But for my own reasons and issues, I've generally been bad about showing it. Meaning bad about initiating anything from hugs to sex. I knew this was really taking a toll on my wife, how could it not, so I started therapy. Pretty soon after that, things changed, I figured out how to be less guarded with her and show her more affection, actually a lot more, like emotionally, physically, sexually. I want everything with her and don't want to hold much back. Don't get the wrong impression, I'm not creepy and not overbearing, just a lot of intense feelings and desires on my side. Almost overnight, when I brought out this newly rediscovered me, she shut down sexually and physically. I'd initiate sex and she'd decline. we're to the point where even some of our cuddling rituals have gone away. If I didn't know better, I'd almost say, like, it's a turn off for her. We've talked about all this quite a bit, which is good, but I can tell we're not really getting anywhere.

Kristal DeSantis:

I,

Angelo Santiago:

she says all of this change is just a lot to process, that some of it is hard because it shines a light on how much she was missing out on, and that because of all that, she really isn't feeling any sexual or physical intimacy desires anymore. Or at least not now. I understand and respect all of that, of course. Still, I'm not going to lie, it's been hard. I went to therapy to address this issue, and now things are actually sort of worse than they were before. I don't want to pressure her, obviously, but I also don't want to get permanently caught in the roommate trap. And yes, couples therapy is obviously the right answer here, but I can tell now isn't the right time for her. Okay, so the extent of the actual questions, I guess they would be, does sex drive intimacy for women just turn off like that overnight? Part of what I'm struggling with is trying to figure out if I did something specific that turned her off, if it really is just the change in my affection level, or if something else is going on. We went from being really frisky to literally nothing in the course of like a week.

Kristal DeSantis:

Be good,

Angelo Santiago:

it's what I that I changed, any thoughts on how We get back to a better place. I don't want to go back to being more distance, but sometimes I wonder if we were better when she was the chaser in our relationship,

Kristal DeSantis:

Okay, I just want to acknowledge that this is a very common thing that I see in relationships, right? Is when one person goes to therapy and they start working on themselves, they are tracking their own changes, whereas the partner not be aware yet. Of what's happening below the surface until tada, the big reveal, And so that's often kind of that discrepancy is he's like, I've been working on this for a year. I'm ready to go, but she's hearing about it for the first time. So right now I'm hearing, she's kind of still in the taken aback phase of like, wait, my husband has just changed overnight. what, what does that mean for me? And so I'm hearing that she's still processing of like how. This information, how she responds to this information, right? Like, because at the end of the day, the dynamic is going to change, right? He has changed his part. And now what I'm hearing is she's kind of reflecting on what does that mean for me? And how do I then have to change my side to respond to this new version of my husband that seemingly just appeared overnight? and I've had this happen with couples specifically when it comes to sex, but specifically when it comes to intimacy. Um, I actually had a similar situation the other way, where the guy was like, it was like a switch flipped, and overnight she was like, okay, I get it. Let's have sex now. then he had to kind of come to grips with, if it was that easy, why didn't you do it earlier? And now I'm going through the stages of grief, of like, you couldn't just on then, when I've been begging for years? now I'm kind of mad,

Angelo Santiago:

Yeah.

Kristal DeSantis:

so, this is part of the challenge of growth in couples is that sometimes it happens, um, asynchronously, right? In a perfect world, we'd all grow together at the same time. And, you know, um, but so often, especially when couples don't have that kind of, um, like built in stages of growth from the beginning is that it does, it is kind of choppy. Um, and so I guess what I would say to this man is. Stick it out. Like this is part of, um, also the generosity of a healthy relationship is you've done all this. Oh, you know, but she's hearing it for the first time. And I've seen

Angelo Santiago:

Yeah. Sorry.

Kristal DeSantis:

comes to affairs and betrayals somebody's like, gosh, I've been sitting with this. I've been going to therapy about my guilt and my shame. And it's been, you know, three years and I'm finally ready to reveal to my partner and I'm, I've done all my work and I'm ready to work on us. And then they're surprised when their partner is like, Oh my God, I'm going to divorce you. And they're like, wait, but no, I did all my work. And it's like, well, they're hearing about it for the first time. So their process is just starting. Whereas yours might be at this completely different level of acceptance or ending or future focus. You got to wait for their process to catch up. All right. Um, and so, that's what's coming up for me when I hear this is I'm really glad

Angelo Santiago:

Okay.

Kristal DeSantis:

know, the fear that this is going to last forever. I hear that, but that's also where maybe she needs a little bit of individual therapy first before then couples therapy to then help reassure you that, um, you know, there is a path forward.

Angelo Santiago:

I love that. Give her some grace. Um, yeah, the word that comes to mind for me is, is patient and trusting that, you know, you're doing the right things as long as, you know, we're only getting one side of the story, obviously, but from this side of the story, it's like, it feels like your heart is in the right place. You want what's best for the relationship you, like you said, you want to do what's best for your wife and. Um, yeah, just be patient and something you said earlier in our conversation, Kristal is like, get curious, right? Instead of coming to your conclusions, just allow it to to play out. And another thing that I'll finish up with and is, you know, in in relational light therapy, which is one of the practices that I study, there's this idea of, Reception and transmission work. And the founder of RLT would say, right, here's one partner that's asking for something and asking for something and asking for something over and over when partner B finally gives them that thing, you know, he says, do you think that partner a, all of a sudden his head over heels and it is just everything is gray. It's like, no, they struggle to actually receive the thing that they've never gotten. And so, like you said, like it takes a little bit of work on both sides for it to come to that point of. Finding where the pieces fit and where you, as a partnership of the, you complete me, like you said, actually mesh and combine because it is, it's, it takes a little wiggling back and forth to get the pieces to fit.

Kristal DeSantis:

Yeah.

Angelo Santiago:

so Kristal. Thank you so much for being here on the show. It's been amazing. I look forward to future conversations with you. check out Kristal's book strong, a relationship field guide for the modern man. The link is in the show notes. I highly recommend it.

Kristal DeSantis:

I'm

Angelo Santiago:

joining us on better husband. If you feel like you got any value from this episode, make sure to hit that follow or subscribe button. If you have any questions, comments, or a situation in your marriage that you want for me to cover on the show, you can text me or email me using the links in the show notes. I'm here every week to help you become a better husband. I'm Angelo Santiago. Thank you for being part of this community and I'll see you on the next one.